[Debian-l10n-commits] r1201 - in /reports: 2008/ 2008/001_extremadura_i18n.status 2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt todo/ todo/extremadura_i18n_coordination.txt todo/extremadura_i18n_tools.txt
faw at users.alioth.debian.org
faw at users.alioth.debian.org
Thu Aug 14 18:20:01 UTC 2008
Author: faw
Date: Thu Aug 14 18:20:00 2008
New Revision: 1201
URL: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/?sc=1&rev=1201
Log:
[reports]: Adding the 'todo' directory with two pending reports and the '2008'
directory with one report. The main idea is to use the 'todo' directory to
prepare the reports and once they are done we move them to the year they are
sent with a sequential number, a good name and a .status file with some meta
information.
Added:
reports/2008/
reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.status
reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt
reports/todo/
reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_coordination.txt
reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_tools.txt
Added: reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.status
URL: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.status?rev=1201&op=file
==============================================================================
--- reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.status (added)
+++ reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.status Thu Aug 14 18:20:00 2008
@@ -1,0 +1,8 @@
+File: 2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt
+Sent: 20080114
+Sent-By: Felipe Augusto van de Wiel
+Sent-To: debian-devel-announce at lists.debian.org, debian-i18n at lists.debian.org
+Prepared-By: Felipe Augusto van de Wiel, Nicolas François, Friedel Wolff,
+ Martijn van Oosterhout
+Abstract: Debian i18n Extremadura meeting 2007. The session happened between
+ 20071212 and 20071215, this file describes the results we achieved.
Added: reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt
URL: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt?rev=1201&op=file
==============================================================================
--- reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt (added)
+++ reports/2008/001_extremadura_i18n.txt Thu Aug 14 18:20:00 2008
@@ -1,0 +1,204 @@
+Hi everybody,
+
+ From December 12th to December 15th, Junta de Extremadura
+hosted another one of the Debian Meetings; five i18n guys shared
+ideas, food, buses and fun with the Debian KDE Maintainers. We
+would like to thank Extremadura for hosting us during the Hispalinux
+Meeting 2007, the event was held at Universad de Derecho (Law
+University) in Caceres, Spain.
+
+ These are the minutes, results and notes from our work, it
+is a brief description but hopefully complete of what we have done
+and what is still missing/pending.
+
+ Thanks to Cesar (cek) we had the chance to work on churro
+(i18n.debian.net) locally; the server is still running a 2.4 kernel
+because of some "tick" problems with 2.6 series, the last one tried
+was 2.6.21 and we should try newer ones, in order to support upgrades
+and not get stuck with 2.4, we hope Cesar will find time to test new
+Debian kernels.
+
+ First, let me introduce everybody to the services, robots
+and resources being hosted by i18n.d.n:
+
+ * MoinMoin wiki for local and simple reference documentation, it
+ contains all the links to the below resources.
+ http://i18n.debian.net/wiki/
+
+ * Pootle experimental server
+
+ * dl10n scripts, aka dl10n robots (codename Lion), these scripts are
+ responsible for the status of pseudo URLs used by some translation
+ teams, by the Project Smith and by the NMU Priority List for i18n
+ NMU Campaign
+
+ * Synchronization of the i18n material used by the Debian website
+ to generate translation statistics about PO and PO-debconf
+
+ * Generation of Compendium PO files per-language
+
+ * Different types of statistics
+
+ * Other non user-visible services like a full source mirror for
+ stable, testing, unstable and experimental, used by the scripts
+ and robots.
+
+ * DDTP, Debian Descriptions Translation Project
+
+ * DDTSS, The Debian Distributed Translation Server Satellite, a web
+ front-end for DDTP, now integrated to DDTP to use the Database
+ back-end instead of the e-mail interface.
+
+ And, at some point, we found important to state clear the acronyms
+ and names used in related DDTP projects/tools:
+
+ + DDTS, Debian Description Translation Server, this is the main
+ "back-end" used in DDTP, it tends to be the interface between
+ translator tools (present and future ones) and the database;
+
+ + ddt.cgi is a CGI interface that is able to provide info for
+ specific packages or translations, including diffs, related
+ packages and active/inactive descriptions.
+
+ + DDTC which is the old (and still functional) command line client
+ for DDTP.
+
+
+ We took the chance to organize a few things on churro, old
+accounts were cleaned out and removed, we moved from /org to /srv
+and got more GBs of space to the "playground". Old files were also
+removed and some are schedule to deletion on early 2008. With the
+reallocation of /org we also find some more space to /home and /var,
+we reorganize some of the links on the web space (specially to remove
+services from people's accounts), and we changed the mirror script
+to also synchronize the Packages and Contents files.
+
+ Grisu and Martijn worked mainly on DDTP and DDTSS integration.
+DDTSS now provides statistics for stable, testing and unstable, we
+are also working with Debian Med to provide support and infrastructure
+to a specific audience, like packages related to Medicine. The
+conversion to talk directly with DDTP/DDTS database also provided:
+
+ * Fetching new translations is almost instantaneous and marks
+ translation as requested (avoiding duplicated works via the
+ e-mail interface).
+
+ * After sufficient reviews occurred, the upload is instant
+
+ * Committed DDTS / DDTSS / DDTP website generation into SVN
+ + Added READMEs for the above directories
+
+
+ DDTSS now announces the user using authentication because
+of its integration with the Database backend used by DDTP. Quick
+trivia: DDTP is now a compound of 25 languages occupying 18 GBytes.
+
+ A few days before the meeting we had the offer to use
+"AUTOBYHAND" to upload a package with the Translation-* files. The
+package is now called 'ddtp-translations' and we worked during the
+meeting to create scripts to build the package and to test it on
+the archive side. This approach allow Debian i18n Team to upload
+new translations and remove old ones (or inactive ones) without
+bother FTP Master Team. Special thanks to Anthony Town, he has been
+working with us to prove tips, fixes and info on how to produce the
+package and the scripts. The code is available in the debian-l10n
+SVN under pkg-ddtp-translations:
+
+ http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/debian-l10n/pkg-ddtp-translations
+
+
+ In our case, "BYHAND" processing consists of a simple
+tarball of the {main,contrib,non-free}/i18n/Translation-*, we decide
+to work on a set of scripts to make it easier to create new packages
+(ddtp-translations) in a consistent way and keeping debian/changelog
+up-to-date. We also made some suggestions to the script what will
+run on the archive side to check the tarball structure, base on the
+examples of debian-maintainers and debtags (tags-override).
+
+
+ One of our initial targets for the meeting with regards to
+Pootle and Debian was to try big PO files per language, fortunately,
+Nicolas and Friedel were able to increase Pootle performance enough
+to get a few languages from DDTP loaded in Pootle. Using the upstream
+Pootle-diet branch, which uses a database back-end for the generation
+of statistics, the time to browse the DDTP POs of a language (~20.000
+files) went down to a dozen of seconds.
+
+ Speaking about Pootle, Friedel gave us a good picture of
+what is coming next in terms of Pootle's development. There are
+improvements planned in the areas of permissions and rights
+delegation, as well as file management (for projects and templates).
+Improved management of terminology projects is also planned.
+
+ Improvements in the QA capabilities of the translate toolkit
+and Pootle are planned to help with the "false positives" of the
+pofilter checks. Better reuse of existing translations will become
+possible by using better translation memory techniques. There is
+also work planned on formats and converters involving, for example,
+XLIFF, TMX, TRADOS and WordFast.
+
+
+ Another pending task for quite a while was the CVS migration
+to SVN, it is now done, with a new layout. Commits to the CVS were
+disabled and every single script or resource depending on CVS should
+be changed to use SVN. For now, we are publishing (via HTTP) the
+status files generated by the pseudo-urls robots until we can fix the
+scripts to re-enable the commit of the files. You can find them here:
+
+ http://i18n.debian.net/debian-l10n/status/
+
+
+ We are pretty happy with the changes and results of the
+work during those days, but we still have some items pending on
+our TODO list:
+
+ * More advertisement and usage information about PO Compendiums
+ There are two use cases are identified:
+ + Filling new PO files.
+ + QA work to find inconsistent translations.
+
+ Maybe Eddy would love to do that? :-)
+
+
+ * Extend the duration of the statistics history. (Nekral)
+
+ * Debian packages of the services running on churro
+ + DDTP (Grisu)
+ + DDTSS (Martijn)
+ + dl10n (Nekral)
+
+ * DDTP: add some scripts to handle packages with version in
+ the description (e.g. kernel and kernel modules) (Martijn)
+
+ * DDTP: Standard generation of the translation tarballs (faw)
+
+ * DDTP: document the bracketed stats on the main page (faw)
+
+ * DDTC: should be updated to match the current features.
+ Documentation to ease integration with procmail. (Nekral -
+ low priority)
+
+ * Implement mail service for translation teams with their own
+ robots (e.g. Dutch) (faw)
+
+ * Collect data from http://www.debian.org/devel/website/stats/
+ (Nekral)
+
+ * http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/po/,
+ http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/po-debconf/
+ are built based on the churro material. It would make more
+ sense to build these statistics on churro (Nekral)
+
+ + We could "fork" the page and add some fancy new features on
+ these pages (Nekral)
+
+ + Add information from the coordination page to indicate that
+ a translation is ongoing.
+
+ * Pootle: missing review indication. Hard with PO back-end. (Friedel)
+
+
+ There are a couple more reports to be sent but they are
+more focused on i18n specific questions, tools and plans for 2008.
+So, probably those will be sent only to debian-i18n mail list. If
+you are interested, please, stay tuned. :-)
Added: reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_coordination.txt
URL: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_coordination.txt?rev=1201&op=file
==============================================================================
--- reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_coordination.txt (added)
+++ reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_coordination.txt Thu Aug 14 18:20:00 2008
@@ -1,0 +1,103 @@
+Here are some ideas to provide better support for l10n teams.
+They were gathered while looking at the processes of other l10n teams [0]
+during the I18N Extremadura 2007 meeting.
+
+We hope this could lead to a Debian I18N team and replace the need for the
+current Knights of Nicky-Nicky.
+
+Building a team of translation team coordinators
+================================================
+It would be nice to build a I18N team with the coordinators from all the
+Debian L10N teams.
+
+We think this could be useful in Debian:
+ - Defining milestones
+There are different milestones in Debian, and even if the exact dates are not
+known in advance, it would be nice to keep them in mind to avoid missing some
+deadlines.
+
+It would be nice to have a central planning with the expected L10N works
+related to a release:
+ o Stable freeze
+ o D-I release
+ o release notes
+ o Stable releases
+ o ...
+
+Based on the experience of previous releases and on the experience of the
+multiple L10N teams, we should be able to have a estimate of the time needed
+to provide the translation of the different documents, or to estimate at what
+time a team should worry if it has too many translations lagging in the BTS.
+
+That could permit to avoid dispersion of a team on too many subject before
+a release and avoid deception of teams which miss a deadline.
+
+This could also be used to make sure our resources will be present at the
+right time (try to imagine a release when Christian is in vacation for two
+months, out of any Internet connection).
+
+ - Defining goals
+The team could define/announce (per team) goals for the next release.
+The more experienced teams could help defining the goals and help defining
+plannings based on the experience of the expected deadlines.
+
+Each team could benefit from the knowledge of other teams.
+
+
+ - building a team
+We could easily setup periodic IRC meeting.
+This would help building a I18N team. We found
+
+Communication between L10N teams is needed and many peoples are currently
+reinventing the wheel.
+
+ - Improving the Debian I18N infrastructure
+Having a Debian I18N team does not mean changing all the current way I18N
+works on Debian. Some also claim that such a team already exist in Debian.
+This would not mean changing the current communication channels
+(debian-i18n at l.d.o, and #debian-i18n are working correctly).
+
+More advertisement on the Debian I18N/L10N processes
+====================================================
+A first step could be to gather all the teams' information on the WiKi,
+sharing a common structure.
+
+Here are some information that could be found on the documentation of other
+teams:
+ * Contact informations
+ - mailing list
+ - administrator, for example if some accounts need to be created
+ - (friendly)coordinators, who should be the more experienced translators,
+ able to answer questions (technical, preocesses, etc.) from new comers,
+ who should be part of the Debian I18N team to report requests from
+ Debian developpers on debian-i18n or on other topics which involve the
+ L10N team.
+ * processes
+ - internal processes of the team
+ - glossaries
+ - recommendations, tips
+ - other links, resources
+ * list of members and emeritus members
+ * advertisement
+ - goals
+ - announces
+
+team of coordinators
+ * define goals for next release
+ * identify problems
+ - deadline
+ * periodic meetings
+
+Experience of most experienced teams
+ * deadlines
+ * good practices
+ * tasks that have to be performed before a release
+ - retroplanning
+ - needed resources for these tasks
+ * calendar
+ * NMU campaign
+
+Improving tools/infrastructure
+ * share the same tools and infrastructure
+ * tools should provide more information and correct more mistakes
+ * proper documentation of tools and resources
Added: reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_tools.txt
URL: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_tools.txt?rev=1201&op=file
==============================================================================
--- reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_tools.txt (added)
+++ reports/todo/extremadura_i18n_tools.txt Thu Aug 14 18:20:00 2008
@@ -1,0 +1,248 @@
+During the Extremadura 2007 I18N Meeting, we had a look at a new i18n related
+software: transifex.
+
+This session was extended to a review of what the other distributions use
+to manage their translations, and see if we were lagging behind and how we
+could improve.
+
+This session was limited in time, and thus some of the below information
+may not be as accurate as we would like.
+If you have more information or more accurate information, do not hesitate to
+send corrections to debian-i18n at lists.debian.org
+
+Here is the report of this session, which include a description of this new
+tools and analysis on how it could be used by Debian.
+The reports ends by a summary of what we could find regarding the l10n
+infrastructure of other distribution.
+
+A separate report try to describes some area were the Debian i18n
+infrastructure could be enhanced.
+
+Transifex
+=========
+HomePage: https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/transifex/
+
+Description (from the HomePage)
+-------------------------------
+ Transifex is a web-system that facilitates the process of submitting
+ translations in various version control systems (VCS). The name literally
+ means "translation-builder" (from the latin verb facere).
+
+Description
+-----------
+Transifex is integrated in Damned Lies and provides the access methods to
+various Version Control Systems (VCS).
+It was developed by Dimitris Glezos during a Google Summer of Code project,
+mentored by Fedora.
+
+It is (being) adopted by the Fedora project
+(http://translate.fedoraproject.org/), but we could not test more since it
+requires login access.
+
+The Fedora Localization Project (FLP, http://translate.fedoraproject.org/) has
+large localization teams, and want to give them the possibility to provide
+translation to upstream maintainers.
+The Fedora Project also supports a lot of different VCS for the Fedora
+specific tools/packaging, and some packages are hosted out of the Fedora
+infrastructure, but Fedora translator have only access to the Fedora's CVS
+repository.
+
+It (Transifex and Damned Lies) is a central concentration point for
+translation material:
+ * it provides translation materials to translators, gathered from upstream
+ repositories
+ * it provides statistics about the current translations
+ * it accept updated material and commit them to the upstream repositories
+ Needs accounts tuning
+ - transifex has an account on the various repositories (ssh account)
+ - translators are authenticated by transifex (OpenID planned,
+ currently Fedora authentication)
+ * it notifies the translators (planned)
+
+To commit the updated translation, an account must be created for transifex
+(ssh account). The translators are authenticated by transifex (OpenID planed,
+currently users are authenticated by the Fedora system).
+
+This removes the need for translators to use and understand various VCS
+systems.
+It helps developers to find translators if a large community of translators
+are using transifex.
+It avoids the creation of too many accounts on the VCS.
+
+Other related tools
+-------------------
+ * mr (Multi Repository): http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/mr/
+ The mr(1) command can checkout, update, or perform other actions on a set
+ of repositories as if they were one combined repository. It supports any
+ combination of subversion, git, cvs, mercurial, bzr and darcs repositories,
+ and support for other revision control systems can easily be added.
+
+ We could not test the "commit" feature of transifex, but it seems it is a
+ web page allowing the upload of a file, which should be even more simple
+ than using mr.
+
+ * TP (TranslationProject): http://translationproject.org/html/welcome.html
+ The Translation Project (TP for short) aims to get maintainers and
+ translators of free software packages together, so that most computer
+ programs gradually become able to speak many languages.
+
+ transifex differs a bit from the TP because the PO files are pulled
+ by transifex (we did not check the frequency), while the Translation
+ Project relies on the upstream authors which must push their PO files when
+ they are ready to be translated (before a release).
+ Both methods have pros and cons.
+
+ * Pootle
+ Pootle is also a central repository of translation material. It can be
+ integrated to subversion repositories (this was not tested a lot on the
+ Debian Pootle instance), and support for other VCS systems is being
+ integrated upstream.
+ Pootle also supports web based translation, which is a nice feature, but
+ makes also the system more complex (the content is much more dynamic).
+
+Unknown behavior
+----------------
+ * reservation of a PO file
+ * merges
+ * allowing upstream translators not using transifex
+ * using multiple instances of transifex
+ They would need to be synchronized, in order to share the same translation
+ teams. OpenID would be needed.
+
+
+Possible usage in Debian
+------------------------
+The goal of supporting upstream translation does not seems to be shared by
+Debian translation teams, which focus on the translation of Debian specific
+messages.
+
+But Debian differs from other distribution by its heavily decentralized
+nature, and could benefit from support of multiple VCS, and Debian
+developers could like the delegation of commit rights to a transifex server,
+which could be supported by the Debian development infrastructure (e.g. on
+Alioth).
+
+Personal thoughts
+-----------------
+transifex is still not complete. It still needs 2 major milestone before
+public readiness (https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/transifex/roadmap).
+It is currently in production for Fedora, but I don't know if it is currently
+used.
+
+
+Damned Lies
+===========
+Damned Lies (DL) is a web service developed for the Gnome localization teams.
+
+It permits to manage teams and translations:
+ * List of teams
+ This provides contact information, processes of the team, mailing list,
+ links
+ A team can manage multiple languages.
+ It provides a summary of the translation statistics is displayed for the
+ languages and releases supported by the team.
+ * List of languages
+ * List of releases
+ A release is a set of packages and their versions.
+ It could be for Debian sid, testing, stable, but also debian-med, etc.
+ * List of packages
+ It provides links to the package, VCS, and description
+ It provides the statistics of the translations, and the translation material
+ (POT, POs) for the releases supported by the package.
+
+Along with the downloadable PO files, translator can see warnings or error of
+the PO files.
+
+The web interface is nice and quite intuitive. It can provide access to the
+translation materials, and information how to handle the translation, how to
+report it, etc.
+
+Damned Lies is currently used in production by Fedora, and Gnome.
+
+It could probably be deployed easily for Debian (the main point is to gather
+the translation material. Then links to packages.d.o could be added.
+
+
+Summary
+=======
+DL looks nice and could easily be deployed to replace the www.debian.org
+pages if there is an interest.
+
+transifex has some nice features, but still seems too young and will need more
+love.
+
+This is yet another i18n infrastructure tool
+
+
+
+Summary of the other distribution's infrastructure
+==================================================
+Fedora
+------
+Fedora has a centralized (multi-packages, multi-teams) i18n infrastructure.
+
+Fedora uses (or will use) DL + transifex (http://translate.fedoraproject.org/)
+
+Finding information on the Fedora processes was quite simple.
+
+RedHat
+------
+Will move to the Fedora infrastructure
+
+Gnome
+-----
+Gnome uses Damned Lies
+
+Some Gnome teams have additional layers to handle workflow (e.g.
+http://gnomefr.traduc.org/suivi)
+
+Translators have access to statistics and PO files.
+The single project nature probably helps translators pushing their
+translations.
+
+KDE
+---
+KDE uses l10n-stats (http://l10n.kde.org/teams-list.php,
+http://l10n.kde.org/about-stats.php)
+
+It is a web interface similar to DL.
+The team information also contain the list of members of a team.
+It differentiate a team administrator from team coordinator and translator.
+
+The statistics support statistics history. Statistics for the applications and
+for the documentation are separated.
+
+l10N-stats is used by KDE and compiz.
+
+Novel/Suse
+----------
+The Suse l10n infrastructure (http://i18n.opensuse.org/) seems to be based on
+a Mediawiki adaptation.
+
+It provides howtos, list of teams, statistics, access to PO files, SVN
+information.
+
+The processes seems more simple due to a more centralized development
+infrastructure
+(http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Suse-i18n-downloads).
+
+Mandriva
+--------
+ * Not found
+
+Gentoo
+------
+The infrastructure is focused on the translation of documentation.
+
+It is Wiki based.
+
+Ubuntu
+------
+The l10N work on Ubuntu is done in Rosetta/Launchpad.
+
+Debian
+------
+Finding information with Google was not that easy.
+Maybe it was too late, and I could hardly open my eyes, maybe the
+documentation should receive more advertisement.
+
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