[gopher] (no subject)

Tue May 17 11:40:06 UTC 2011

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Well I did ask for everyone's thoughts, and no, I'm not offended in the
least, and didn't take your post as such either.

I find your position to be summed up like this:

"Bradley, why would you entertain the thought of stooping to the level
of mACROsFOT?".

And each person's point (Three so far), I don't take lightly. In fact,
it weighs heavily upon any future decisions I may make in that regard.

I hadn't actually thought of the notion as unethical Ted. I'm still
going to have to wrap my thinking cap around that one for a while, but
the real point I guess I'm trying to address, is that so many
gopherholes I browse seem to be populated with identical (non-unique)
content from what those same operators are serving in HTTP space, so I
ask myself...

***
"What is the purpose of a public gopher server if the exact same data is
available via HTTP, and what incentive is there for users to adopt usage
of gopher, and for developers to extend or port apps to support gopher,
if that is the case?"
***

Obviously Ted (And please, When you said, 'Mr. Thornton', I started
looking around the room for my dad ;) ), you're perspective has made an
impact on my thinking here, but the quoted ponderance in the paragraph
above is still beleaguering me.

oh, and I do Page Plus and lost most of my clients in a single day when
Verizon whacked all their Blackberrys, so I'm going to have to look into
the "WIND" network (If you wanna hit me offlist about that).

On 05/17/2011 03:51 AM, n.theodore.matavka.files at gmail.com wrote:
> Gentlemen:
> I, too, am highly opposed to the categorical blocking of Gopher to HTML proxies.  Although it doesn't apply to me, a MacOS and Aix user, as well as my fellow Linux and Unix users, since many of us use Lynx as our preferred HTML client (which can, as you know, read Gopher pages as well).  Most Linux/Unix systems come installed with either or both of Lynx and the Unix Gopher client.  However, either a small majority or a significant minority of Gopher users utilise Microshit Winblows, which has neither of these; its users are also more likely to prefer a graphical solution, such as Fx, which now no longer supports Gopher, to the text-based clients described above.
> 
> While I am against the festering abscess which is Winblows, as well as the deluded users which believe that it is superior to Unix/Linux, I would never support a site which blocks Internet Exploder from accessing it (especially if it displays an insulting message, which I have seen several Web sites doing with both IE and Fx).
> 
> Intentionally doing this to even one HTML proxy would be unethical, and I would be dissatisfied with the site's owners.  Note that I'm not referring to sites which don't display properly in a particular browser or proxy; I'm talking about displaying a 403 Forbidden or a "friendly" block message when they see a User Agent string they don't like.  
> 
> A radical, almost militant attempt to establish Gopher supremacy that does this to all proxies would accomplish nothing except lose one visitor.  I see this as a breach of ethics at the highest level, in the same vein as Winblows Genuine Assurance, Winblows Activation, or Google "phoning home" once in a while.  In addition, the sheer elitism displayed by that kind of philosophy fills me with horror because it smacks of the discriminatory corporate ideals embraced by Microsoft and Apple, which run contrary to the ideals of the Open Source initiative.
> 
> This is my warning to you all, and especially Mr Thornton, that I will boycott any and all Gopher sites that take the action he has mentioned.  At the same time, this is my request to you to follow me in my boycott of any site which categorically blocks all HTML proxies, or which blocks any particular Gopher client.
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> Ted Matavka.
> Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bradley D. Thornton" <Bradley at NorthTech.US>
> Sender: gopher-project-bounces+n.theodore.matavka.files=gmail.com at lists.alioth.debian.org
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:22:24 
> To: Gopher Project Discussion<gopher-project at lists.alioth.debian.org>
> Reply-To: Gopher Project Discussion <gopher-project at lists.alioth.debian.org>
> Subject: Re: [gopher] (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> On 05/16/2011 12:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> do anyone else observe 89.16.178.179, gopherproxy.org is accessing a 
>>> selector every minute for day in a row ? , seems like
>>> someone is crawling through that proxy.
> 
>> That someone is probably a web robot. I've had a few go-rounds with the
>> proprietor of gopherproxy.org when I temporarily blocked it for DOSing the
>> Twitter->gopher gateway after causing it to exceed its rate limit.
> 
> Yeah, although I haven't blocked any HTTP to Gopher proxies (yet), I
> consider it from time to time - I just don't think it's time to block
> them yet. I will, however, at some point.
> 
> My thinking is this:
> 
> Gopher isn't something to *bring back*. It is simply (whether I am
> endeared to it or not) a useful protocol, that went overlooked and was
> marginalized by the dot-com bubble a decade ago.
> 
> Advertising blitzkriegs, etc., just don't fit well in the Gopher model.
> Its utility is outstanding for serving files without kruft, although I'm
> still waiting on the latest data from Vishnu to see how well we're
> coming along with search technology - one of the keys to rebuilding
> critical mass.
> 
> At this point, HTTP to Gopher proxies serve, affirmatively, to build
> that critical mass, but there's no point in supporting, by porting to,
> the gopher protocol if all that exists is the same ole same ole.
> 
> That's why A good percentage of my gopherholes are populated with
> *unique content* that you can't get from me via HTTP - namely, a rather
> large repository of 64bit Slackware packages.
> 
> Now, that sounds great, but for those of you who aren't fellow slackers,
> I need to disclose that most slackers do things ourselves (Make our own
> packages from source), so there isn't a truly great demand for [most] of
> my packages. Some you can only get from me, and since pretty much
> everyone uses Firefox, Iceweasel, or Icecat, they already have direct
> access.
> 
> For the b0n3h34ds running Internet Exploder, they have, as an option at
> this time, to browse my gopherhole via an HTTP proxy.
> 
> In the future, I intend to simply categorically block all HTTP to Gopher
> proxies, not to be mean, but to encourage the use of either gopher
> clients, or gopher capable clients.
> 
> I'm proud to say that I've even gotten flamed a couple of times for not
> making the more unique parts of my respository available via HTTP.
> 
> I figure you can always use Lynx, in a pinch ;)
> 
> But for now... We're simply building awareness (people have short
> memories), once we build demand, I'll close the HTTP door. I have no
> idea when that will be. Maybe it will be like an Arnold movie when he
> says, "You'll know when I give the signal".
> 
> Think of it as my way of contributing to our refoliation project :)
> 
> I know I've ranted a couple of times in chan #gopherproject about this a
> few times, but Cameron, you're not there, so this may be the first time
> you've heard it from me ;)
> 
> Thoughts, everyone?
> 
> 

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- -- 
Bradley D. Thornton
Manager Network Services
NorthTech Computer
TEL: +1.760.666.2703  (US)
TEL: +44.203.318.2755 (UK)
http://NorthTech.US

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