[gopher] Need suggestions regarding proposed Gopher History Archive contract

John Goerzen jgoerzen at complete.org
Wed Apr 11 19:48:42 UTC 2012


Hi folks,

I have been in contact with Stanford University regarding placing a copy 
of my Gopherspace crawl from a few years ago over there.  I have 
attached the document they want me to sign, and below you can see some 
of the concerns I raised with them about it.  I am not a lawyer and 
would appreciate any advice.

-- John


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived at ibiblio.org
Date: 	Tue, 3 Apr 2012 15:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: 	Susan L Rojo <srojo at stanford.edu>
To: 	John Goerzen <jgoerzen at complete.org>



Hi John,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. Your points regarding the 
physical/digital issue are well taken and you are not the first to raise 
them. We are slowly making changes to reflect this issue but at this 
point the deed modified as it is should suffice for our purposes. Let me 
clarify points below.

I am uncertain that I can represent that I am the owner of this data.
We are declaring you the owner of the collection, not necessarily the 
owner from a content or copyright sense. Similarly, if you were donating 
your collection of Beatles memorabilia, we know you aren't the copyright 
holder or the only one to own a pair of Mickey ears.

Could I simply sign something authorizing Stanford to archive, preserve, 
etc. the collection, so far as I have the power to do?
The Deed is the "simple" sign over for Stanford. We need to show the 
provenance of the collection and the deed is the way we do that. It has 
more legalese than is necessary for your collection but is our mechanism 
for starting the process. You aren't taking responsibility for every bit 
of data included and due to the nature of the collection Stanford 
understands that you did not create the data you have curated.

If Stanford intends to use its ownership of the material to remove the 
ability of others to access it through other means, this is not an 
overall benefit to the community.

In no way would Stanford try to stop others from using the data. The 
point of Stanford having a copy is to be sure a copy is saved "forever" 
for use specifically by students and faculty and also by the general 
population. Clause 5 clarifies that at this point Stanford is committing 
to preserving the data but will not be able to provide access to it 
until the point that it has been "processed." Some people expect that 
they give a donation to Stanford and can find it in the library catalog 
a week or two later. It takes longer than that and Stanford wants to be 
sure the donor understands this. In the case of the Gopher collection, 
there are multiple sources for access and this isn't an issue. We are 
working on an access mechanism for our digital repository but that is 
likely some time off.


I hope I have addressed your concerns and that you are willing to move 
forward. I don't really have flexibility for changing the document more 
than I have to account for the nature of the collection. It is more of a 
formality in this case since, like you said, the data is readily 
available on the internet. It just happens to be a formality I have to 
follow.

Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.


Best,

~Susan



------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"John Goerzen" <jgoerzen at complete.org>
*To: *"Susan L Rojo" <srojo at stanford.edu>
*Sent: *Monday, April 2, 2012 12:11:48 PM
*Subject: *Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived at ibiblio.org

Hi Susan,

Thank you for re-sending.  The document made it this time.

I have reviewed it.  I would be quite pleased to see this collection 
housed at Stanford.  I hope the material can be preserved with the best 
possible access for everyone.

The agreement, however, appears tailored to physical (non-digital) 
items, and as such I still have the following concerns:

   1. I am uncertain that I can represent that I am the owner of this data.
         1. I certainly collected it via a gopher crawl.  As such,
            perhaps one could state that I am indeed the owner of the
            collection as a whole; however, for something so easily
            copied across the Internet, this language strikes me as
            regressive and quite possibly inaccurate.  Stanford
            obviously would have an interest in maintaining it; could I
            simply sign something authorizing Stanford to archive,
            preserve, etc. the collection, so far as I have the power to do?
   2. The combination of clause 2 and 5 also concerns me.  As this data
      is already generally available to researchers on the Internet, if
      Stanford intends to use its ownership of the material to remove
      the ability of others to access it through other means, this is
      not an overall benefit to the community.

I do not know what degree of flexibility you have in these matters.  I 
would suggest, incidentally, that these questions are likely to arise 
with increasing frequency in the future, as more and more artifacts of 
historic interest are digital-only.  Would you like to proceed further?

Thanks,

-- John


On 03/30/2012 04:44 PM, Susan L Rojo wrote:

    Hi John,

    Not sure what that glitch was but try the attached.

    Best,
    ~Susan


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *From: *"John Goerzen" <jgoerzen at complete.org>
    *To: *"Susan L Rojo" <srojo at stanford.edu>
    *Sent: *Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:18:25 PM
    *Subject: *Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived at ibiblio.org

    Hi Susan,

    The attachment on this (and all the other messages you sent) didn't
    make it through - it was present but empty.  Can you double-check
    and try resending?

    -- John

    On 03/14/2012 05:50 PM, Susan L Rojo wrote:

        Hi John,

        Attached and ready for your review is the Deed of Gift for
        yourGopher collection. If you have any questions, please let me
        know. Otherwise, please print out two copies, sign both and
        return them to me at the address in my signature.

        I have confirmed that we can transfer the data from the UNC site
        as you suggested.

        Thank you again for your patience and your willingness to work
        with us.

        Best,
        ~Susan


        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        *From: *"John Goerzen" <jgoerzen at complete.org>
        *To: *"Susan L Rojo" <srojo at stanford.edu>
        *Sent: *Friday, December 16, 2011 2:11:33 PM
        *Subject: *Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived at ibiblio.org

        Hi Susan,

        To answer your questions:

        1) The easiest way to transfer the data to Stanford would
        probably be for someone there to simply download it from the UNC
        site.

        2) I have no specific knowledge of data that should be
        restricted from view.  However, having said that, this is a copy
        of data that was sitting out there on the Internet.  It would be
        naive of me to attempt to give an authoritative answer to that
        question.

        3) I do not own the copyright to most of these files, with a few
        exceptions.  (Data from my own server is included.)

        4) PO Box 393, Hesston, KS 67062.  620-367-2347.

        -- John

        On 12/15/2011 02:51 PM, Susan L Rojo wrote:

            Hi John,

            Thank you for letting me know.

            Below are a few questions I have to complete the deed of
            gift for review by my manager. Once he approves it, I will
            send it to you for your agreement or further discussion.

            How do you think we could best transfer the gopher data to
            Stanford?

            Do you think there is data in the collection that should be
            restricted from view for any reason?

            Do you own copyright to the files you will be donating?

            What is your address and phone (for the official document)?

            I also wanted to confirm that Stanford is planning to be a
            long term custodian of the collection but at this time will
            not be providing access to the data. This should be okay
            since the data can be accessed at UNC.

            Best,
            ~Susan


            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            *From: *"John Goerzen" <jgoerzen at complete.org>
            *To: *"Susan L Rojo" <srojo at stanford.edu>
            *Sent: *Friday, December 9, 2011 1:26:20 PM
            *Subject: *Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived at
            ibiblio.org

            Hi Susan,

            No problem.  As far as I know, that is the only copy UNC is
            maintaining.  It is part of their large permanent data
            collection.

            -- John

            On 12/08/2011 06:41 PM, Susan L Rojo wrote:

                So sorry for not seeing this earlier and sending the
                follow up message!

                I appreciate your response and would like to pursue
                this. Do you know if UNC is keeping a copy somewhere in
                addition to the website you sent below?

                Best,
                ~Susan
                  PS. I'll be back in the office on Tuesday so may not
                respond until then.

                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                *From: *"John Goerzen" <jgoerzen at complete.org>
                *To: *"Susan L Rojo" <srojo at stanford.edu>
                *Sent: *Monday, December 5, 2011 7:04:14 AM
                *Subject: *Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived at
                ibiblio.org

                Hi Susan,

                Thank you for following up with me.  Since we last
                chatted, I found a home for the material at the
                University of North Carolina's iBiblio project.  The
                data lives here:

                http://torrent.ibiblio.org/doc/internet-gopher-archive-2007/181

                http://torrent.ibiblio.org/doc/quux-org-gopher-mirror-collection-2006/182

                I would be happy to have a copy at Stanford as well, but
                I am not sure if it is a good fit; a deed of gift is
                perhaps hard to apply to this kind of material, which
                can be simply copied at will.  If you want to pursue it,
                I'm open to that; but at the same time, given its home
                at UNC, I'm OK with just leaving it there.

                -- John

                On 12/02/2011 06:35 PM, Susan L Rojo wrote:

                    Hi John,

                    My desk has cleared a bit and I am wondering (once
                    again) if you are interested in donating your
                    collection of Gopher materials to Stanford. If so, I
                    will send you a few questions about the collection,
                    draft a deed of gift for you to review, and then get
                    the files transferred to Stanford.

                    Please let me know if you are interested.

                    Best,
                    ~Susan


                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    *From: *"John Goerzen" <jgoerzen at complete.org>
                    *To: *"Susan L Rojo" <srojo at stanford.edu>
                    *Sent: *Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:41:48 AM
                    *Subject: *Re: [gopher] Gopher History Now Archived
                    at ibiblio.org

                    On 08/11/2010 06:44 PM, Susan L Rojo wrote:
                     > Hi John,
                     > Congratulations on having your collection hosted by
                     > http://torrent.ibiblio.org. I wanted to check in
                    to see if you are still
                     > interested in having it preserved at Stanford as
                    well.
                     >
                     > Best,
                     > ~Susan

                    Hi Susan,

                    Yes, I am still interested in having it at Stanford
                    too, if that's still
                    on the table on your end.

                    -- John


                    -- 
                    Susan Rojo
                    Manager, Digital Media and Collections Projects
                    HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
                    Stanford University Libraries
                    Stanford CA 94305-6004
                    AKA Mollie Mavendorf in SL
                    @digiarchivist
                    650.721.2752
                    srojo at stanford.edu




                -- 
                Susan Rojo
                Manager, Digital Media and Collections Projects
                HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
                Stanford University Libraries
                Stanford CA 94305-6004
                AKA Mollie Mavendorf in SL
                @digiarchivist
                650.721.2752
                srojo at stanford.edu




            -- 
            Susan Rojo
            Manager, Digital Media and Collections Projects
            HRG, Green Library, 557 Escondido Mall
            Stanford University Libraries
            Stanford CA 94305-6004
            AKA Mollie Mavendorf in SL
            @digiarchivist
            650.721.2752
            srojo at stanford.edu






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