[Pkg-xfce-devel] Bug#754850: upower 0.99 drops support for non-systemd

Adam Borowski kilobyte at angband.pl
Fri Aug 15 00:22:38 UTC 2014

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 12:33:35AM +0200, Andreas Henriksson wrote:
> I fail to see any argument on why this is not already resolved.

Suspend and hibernate don't work if upower is upgraded, duh.

> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 12:00:16AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> [...]
> > It would be a wishlist issue if:
> > 1. it was a request for new functionality, or
> > 2. the issue was cosmetic
> > 
> > What we have here is something that:
> > 1. is a regression, and
> > 2. makes the computer as a whole seriously less usable
> Please don't make things up yourself, point to the relevant
> parts of the policy for justification! If you can't find anything
> in policy, then well it's not a policy violation....

# The severity levels are:
# grave
#    makes the package in question unusable or mostly so, or causes data
#    loss, or introduces a security hole allowing access to the accounts of
#    users who use the package.

The package "upower" fails to fulfill any of its functionality on any system
without systemd-sysv.

I do not understand why Michael Biebl reassigned this bug against
xfce4-session, as 1. it's upower that's the culprit, and 2. same applies to
other desktop environments.

> > > Once you've provided a patch the maintainers should (note should, not
> > > must!) consider your suggested solution 
> > 
> > Yes, at least one solution is simple: revert upower to the last functional
> > version.
> > 
> > There are other ways, like using pm-utils directly, but that would require
> > actual work that, per your own words, we cannot force the maintainer to do.
> That work has already been done.
> https://alioth.debian.org/scm/loggerhead/collab-maint/systemd-shim/trunk/view/head:/src/power-unit.c#L34
> As already discussed, systemd-shim is already part of xfce4-power-manager
> recommends so you should already have it installed.

Have you actually tried installing systemd + systemd-shim?

You lose the following functionality:
* suspend
* hibernate
* shutdown
* reboot
* mounting removable devices
* etc, etc...
In other words, basically the whole utopia stack stops working (compared to
using their last version without a systemd dependency).

So no, systemd-shim does not fix the problem.

> > > -- to be in line with the
> > > tech-cttes wishes to support multiple init systems when possible.
> > 
> > Which clearly states that dropping support for other init systems must not
> > be done without a good reason.  Here, we have:
> > * upower 0.9: works with systemd, sysvinit, openrc, upstart
> > * upower 0.99: works with systemd only
> > So it's a straight regression, without even giving any new functionality in
> > return.
> This is not true. See above.

Please explain.  upower 0.9 did work correctly, and continues to do so if
you keep it held.  upower 0.99 does not.

> > Apologies for participating in a BTS ping pong, but as the severity has been
> > changed by someone involved in Gnome3 rather than XFCE, I consider this
> > action to have been anything but unbiased.  The Gnome3 team is quite known
> > for its zeal towards systemd, to the exclusion of any other init system.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Uhm... from the page you quote:

# An association fallacy is an inductive informal fallacy of the type hasty
# generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing
# are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. 

What I claimed in the paragraph above is not that the Gnome3 team is
associated with the systemd team (which would be possibly irrelevant), but
that they do actively seek to make systemd the only supported init system
-- ie, that the association _is_ relevant.  Their reason is understandable:
less work required to make Gnome3 work, but I do claim it is harmful for the
rest of Debian outside Gnome3.  Including xfce, the default desktop

Among five computers in the room I'm currently in, three can not run systemd
due to various reasons, so I'd call Debian continuing to support non-systemd
to be pretty vital.

// If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately
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